Curse

Daesu · Feb 13, 2010, 07:32 PM // 19:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by MasterSasori

2. Undead in the desolation such as Joko's Domain. Undead cause a problem via 2 things. First is that they carry vocal minority which will absolutely destroy para teams without good hex removal. If you want to test condition and hex removal, this is the place to do it because you will know whether or not removal was adequate. Second is that the undead revive each other and that means you need to kill fast or risk resurrection.

I think the Vocal Minority areas are a minority (pun unintended) and is designed to be against Paragon teams that rely on shouts and chants. Even if the build is weaker in that area but strong in others, it is not that big a deal.

Khomet Si Netjer · Feb 14, 2010, 02:11 AM // 02:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by MasterSasori

I wouldn't change the build just yet. You tested it for high condition/hex control area but this may not also be optimal all areas because the majority of areas don't have hexes/conditions that become anything more than a nuisance.

In addition, there are a couple more places you can test so you can be sure.

1. Gate of Abaddon territory (not mission). This area has balanced teams of high level monsters. It will give you an idea of what the build will perform overall as it encompasses many of the the more common archetype build of classes. Word of Madness, Shadow of Fear blahblahblah

I don't imagine any huge problems in there, the hardmode missions in those areas were straightforward using a build similar to racway. I will check it out though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MasterSasori

2. Undead in the desolation such as Joko's Domain. Undead cause a problem via 2 things. First is that they carry vocal minority which will absolutely destroy para teams without good hex removal. If you want to test condition and hex removal, this is the place to do it because you will know whether or not removal was adequate. Second is that the undead revive each other and that means you need to kill fast or risk resurrection.

I vanquished that place with some guildies last year and it wasn't all that bad, the hex spam is pretty severe though. There is a big group with a paragon boss that everyone worries about, they are north of center on the map. I just had a guy run onto the rocks and pull them back to the rest of the group who were waiting in their sand wurms.... lolwurmseige. I did all of that before the buff to Signet of Return and We Shall Return so it's likely to be much harder now. The monsters have greater energy gain than normal so I imagine that they will be able to throw We Shall Return frequently, although given the AI's tendency to spam I wonder if they would be smart enough to store up enough energy for We Shall Return instead of spending the energy on other skills. Signet of Return is going to activate in 2.666 seconds in hardmode. (!!) Almost as bad as the rezmers you can find in slaver's exile.

MasterSasori · Feb 14, 2010, 02:40 AM // 02:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer

I don't imagine any huge problems in there, the hardmode missions in those areas were straightforward using a build similar to racway. I will check it out though.

The HM missions should be a cake walk - it's the vanquishing that's more of an issue.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer

I vanquished that place with some guildies last year and it wasn't all that bad, the hex spam is pretty severe though. There is a big group with a paragon boss that everyone worries about, they are north of center on the map. I just had a guy run onto the rocks and pull them back to the rest of the group who were waiting in their sand wurms.... lolwurmseige. I did all of that before the buff to Signet of Return and We Shall Return so it's likely to be much harder now. The monsters have greater energy gain than normal so I imagine that they will be able to throw We Shall Return frequently, although given the AI's tendency to spam I wonder if they would be smart enough to store up enough energy for We Shall Return instead of spending the energy on other skills. Signet of Return is going to activate in 2.666 seconds in hardmode. (!!) Almost as bad as the rezmers you can find in slaver's exile.

Yeah I saw that para boss too. A REAL pain in the rear. Was running Imba and barely managed to get through it. I think I wiped there as well.

Khomet Si Netjer · Feb 14, 2010, 06:14 AM // 06:14

okay... current build is as follows.

P/W Imbagon variant (OQGkUum45guU4XR2MYMYu48W6m7G)
P/R Volley/Command paragon (OQKkkxm55gmEYYvl4HI2FW9m7m8G)
P/Me Anthem of Fury / Hex Eater paragon (OQWkMgl75guE+WoIKWE2I2Ik7m8G)
N/Rt Aura of the Lich minion bomber (OAhkUwGYoIqEGjcQVAagC4iQC4FD)

henchmen:
R Barrage ranger (Aidan)
N Reaper's Mark necromancer (Eve)
Mo WoH monk (Mhenlo)
Mo ZB monk (Kihm)

I just about vanquished the Gate of Madness area and cleared out the first room of the Abaddon's Gate area (where you get Razah) before I got bored with it. The energy denial is a bit of a pain because Quickening Zephyr spirits are everywhere. This is less of a problem for this team than for most because we have so many paragons, with high leadership + Anthem of Fury + adrenaline shouts they were able to hold their own quite well. Olias was always running out of energy though, more on that in a minute. In the Gate of Madness area i wiped once when I went into the center area and managed to aggro three groups and the assassin boss, ravager of dreams. oops, lol. I just wasn't being careful. Normal groups are not really a threat at all. Two other deaths while vanquishing the whole area, one death for me and one for Olias. When it happened to me I could tell that the monks were simply out of energy, several seconds passed and they didn't cast anything on me. This is mostly a function of the e-denial in effect there and not a problem with the build. Olias died right after me because he used flesh of my flesh, lost half his health and got spiked down instantly. Probably I will remove FOMF so that he doesn't kill himself with it, I'll let the paragons rez instead. I would rate this a success in Realm of Torment hardmode areas, no real issues. Aside from the e-denial the biggest problem is the Rain of Terrors, their Deep Freeze spikes your entire group unless you have SY up when aggroing them (the imbagon variant helps here) and Blurred Vision is likely to hit your whole group as well because the heroes stand so close to you. The hex removal was adequate to take care of this even without Expel Hexes (I took Anthem of Fury instead) and this despite the fact that neither of the monk henchmen has any hex removal skills. One good thing is that Hayda put Burning Refrain on all of the paragons, probably on the ranger too. She even put it on Olias, I guess she got bored. XD So this is a skill that does tend to get maintained on all attackers in your group forever. And in the darkness of the realm of torment you could see it lighting the foes on fire. It would still be better if Anet changed this skill to activate if the target's health is above 50% rather than having health greater than yours, because my paragons have 560-630 health and even high level hardmode critters don't have that much health, not for long anyway.

I'd like to get input on the minion master / minion bomber slot if I can. I rolled up a N/Rt (OAhkUwGYoIqEGjcQVAagC4iQC4FD) with the following:
death 12+2+1, soulreaping 8+1, channeling 10 restoration 2
splinter weapon
aura of the lich
animate bone minions
putrid bile
death nova
foul feast
infuse conditions
flesh of my flesh

I thought I'd put Splinter Weapon on there for the paragons and rangers since I have had great results with this in the past, and it works great on the Rt/N. But Olias never seemed to cast it on anyone, he was too busy doing Foul Feast and Death Nova. Maintaining Aggressive Refrain on everyone is causing Cracked Armor on 3 paragons all the time, so Olias is always casting Foul Feast as well as spamming Death Nova on the minions. He doesn't seem to have much time for anything else. It could have been a result of the heavy e-denial in the area, I'll have to take him into another area to find out... but at the moment I am inclined to put him back up to 13 soul reaping and use that slot on something else and possibly change the elite as well. And here's where I need some input.

Useful death magic elites:

Aura of the Lich: instant minion armies and +1 death magic, all good. This is the default.

Discord: big spammable damage. the paragons are causing conditions so the target only needs to be hexed or enchanted. many enemies will enchant themselves for you so this is going to get used a lot even without the necromancer carrying any hexes. The hex that we carry should be cheap and spammable; Putrid Bile is neither cheap nor spammable, though it has a good effect (damage + degen + AoE damage when target dies).

Toxic Chill: spammable damage and degen if target is enchanted or hexed. not armor ignoring, and thus inferior to Discord IMO.

Virulence: Weakness, Poison, Disease. If the P/Me carries Epidemic as well we could be on to something. But is degen worth losing the armor ignoring damage from Discord? And we are already causing Weakness (from the paragons) and Poison (from Death Nova) anyway.

Contagion: Foul Feast + Contagion means a necromancer that gives every received condition to all nearby foes. But how many foes will be nearby? Probably not many, they will tend to cluster around the minions.

others:
Icy Veins: AoE cold damage
Reaper's Mark: degen and energy
Grenth's Balance: damage, self-heal

Martyr: could fix the condition management as it cleans everyone for 5e and recharges every 10s. Thus he could use it every time the Aggressive Refrains are refreshed without any issues, and this would leave more time for casting Death Nova... but it means losing splinter weapon (since we have to be N/Mo) and losing the elite slot for Martyr. Hmmm...

so if you wanted to improve the necromancer, what would you do?

HigherMinion · Feb 14, 2010, 12:23 PM // 12:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by MasterSasori

The HM missions should be a cake walk - it's the vanquishing that's more of an issue.

Yeah I saw that para boss too. A REAL pain in the rear. Was running Imba and barely managed to get through it. I think I wiped there as well.

Did that yesterday with a guildie; Joko's yeah? Is that the mob near a wurm spot? I think what we did was I lured them to the edge of the rocky stuff, threw my curses and then went into the wurm and ganked them. Simple but effective.

Khomet Si Netjer · Feb 14, 2010, 04:49 PM // 16:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

Did that yesterday with a guildie; Joko's yeah? Is that the mob near a wurm spot? I think what we did was I lured them to the edge of the rocky stuff, threw my curses and then went into the wurm and ganked them. Simple but effective.

yes, that's the way, wurms ftw. the whole desolation was pretty easy to vanquish because of the wurms. the monsters don't fight fair, why should we?

this works very well.
OANDUsx9QqEoBVBHVKgTVVVLCA

N/Mo
death 12+2+1 soulreaping 12+1 healing 3
martyr
death nova
animate bone minions
animate shambling horror
putrid bile
signet of sorrow
signet of lost souls
infuse conditions

i'm still not happy about the damage (it's less than before) but this guy and the hex eater paragon definitely clean house on conditions and hexes.

on a related note, i saw the N/Rt casting splinter weapon occasionally against master of damage so things were better once we got out of the realm of torment. he still doesn't seem to cast it as much as the Rt/N though.

HigherMinion · Feb 15, 2010, 12:27 PM // 12:27

I don't really like using the wurms, I seem to die more often. They have alot of health, but armour seems to be 5AL... I do as much with my own builds before I resort to the wurms.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer

this works very well.
OANDUsx9QqEoBVBHVKgTVVVLCA

N/Mo
death 12+2+1 soulreaping 12+1 healing 3
martyr
death nova
animate bone minions
animate shambling horror
putrid bile
signet of sorrow
signet of lost souls
infuse conditions

i'm still not happy about the damage (it's less than before) but this guy and the hex eater paragon definitely clean house on conditions and hexes.

on a related note, i saw the N/Rt casting splinter weapon occasionally against master of damage so things were better once we got out of the realm of torment. he still doesn't seem to cast it as much as the Rt/N though.

If all you're using on /Mo is Martyr; why not try It's Just A Flesh Wound? It's an instant Draw Conditions. It'll be spammed alot more often.

Khomet Si Netjer · Feb 15, 2010, 03:28 PM // 15:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

I don't really like using the wurms, I seem to die more often. They have alot of health, but armour seems to be 5AL... I do as much with my own builds before I resort to the wurms.

If all you're using on /Mo is Martyr; why not try It's Just A Flesh Wound? It's an instant Draw Conditions. It'll be spammed alot more often.

because IJAFW cleans conditions off of one character, Martyr cleans all conditions off of all characters. I am refreshing the Cracked Armor on all of the paragons every 10 seconds or so and Olias seems to do nothing but spam foul feast if I put that on him. That's okay except that he doesn't have time for anything else, death nova and foul feast seem to take up most of his time.

I have been moving the skills around a little and have come full circle back to the original Kway setup with some modifications. I went back to Horai Wingshielder's group in Dalada uplands and beat them down so fast it wasn't funny. It helps quite a bit to pre-summon the spirits if you are expecting strong opposition.

Current build:
imbagon: OQGjUumI6ShfFZzgxg5izbpbubA
volley paragon: OQKkkxm4ZhmEYYvl4nI2FW9m7m8G
hex eater paragon: OQWkMgl75guD+OIjijwj4Ro7WeD
SoS/splinter/orders: OASjQoiMJSYMGCPCXTlTdiMTOTA

notes: the volley paragon has Song of Purification now instead of Anthem of Guidance, this means we lose some unblockability but our condition removal is strong. It removes 2 conditions on everyone with each activation and with Volley he can gain enough adrenaline to charge it almost instantly.
the hex eater paragon has anthem of fury and burning refrain as well as the two mass hex removal skills. Anthem of Fury gives everyone adrenaline and it helps the paragon charge up Hexbreaker Aria as well. In *really* hex heavy areas we might consider putting expel hexes on this paragon and even changing the Rt/N to Rt/Me with Hex Eater Signet and Drain Enchantment. This means losing Order of Pain but we gain even more mass hex removal.

same dps as before, about 160. If the imbagon brings GFTE we can get 170dps.

i'm toying with the idea of making a P/R variant of the imbagon using TNTF, Stand Your Ground, Serpent's Quickness and Volley. This is a little strange but we can have better coverage with TNTF and 100% coverage with SYG. OQKkgVZsJimEYoFW4X7GQYN2dJyB

HigherMinion · Feb 15, 2010, 10:48 PM // 22:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer

because IJAFW cleans conditions off of one character, Martyr cleans all conditions off of all characters. I am refreshing the Cracked Armor on all of the paragons every 10 seconds or so and Olias seems to do nothing but spam foul feast if I put that on him. That's okay except that he doesn't have time for anything else, death nova and foul feast seem to take up most of his time.

However, because IJaFW is a shout, it takes no time to cast. That's the point; your necro can carry on casting Death Nova and still be cleaning the party.

Khomet Si Netjer · Feb 16, 2010, 04:29 PM // 16:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

However, because IJaFW is a shout, it takes no time to cast. That's the point; your necro can carry on casting Death Nova and still be cleaning the party.

That's true but even so it will end up being 15 energy (3 activations) of IJAFW to clean the paragons every 10 seconds or so. Even necromancers will run out of energy at that rate. I'll try it out and see how it goes but so far I am favoring the Rt/N unless we are facing severe blind spam. The other conditions don't matter much.

MasterSasori · Feb 17, 2010, 04:00 PM // 16:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer

That's true but even so it will end up being 15 energy (3 activations) of IJAFW to clean the paragons every 10 seconds or so. Even necromancers will run out of energy at that rate. I'll try it out and see how it goes but so far I am favoring the Rt/N unless we are facing severe blind spam. The other conditions don't matter much.

Well you do get a +1 energy from the shout.

I don't think there will be enough blind to severely blind you 24/7. With recovery and shield mods (if you plan to use them), you blind durations will be very short.

I wouldn't run martyr, at worst, you can always go constant draw conditions for fast removal and no elite slot taken. IMO, if you need the condition removed, it will be more effective than FF.

Khomet Si Netjer · Feb 17, 2010, 05:18 PM // 17:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by MasterSasori

Well you do get a +1 energy from the shout.

I don't think there will be enough blind to severely blind you 24/7. With recovery and shield mods (if you plan to use them), you blind durations will be very short.

I wouldn't run martyr, at worst, you can always go constant draw conditions for fast removal and no elite slot taken. IMO, if you need the condition removed, it will be more effective than FF.

I don't understand what you are saying about the +1 energy from the shout, I was talking about running that on the minion bomber.

Foul Feast recharges in 5 seconds so we can clean all three paragons in 18s (with aftercast) at a cost of 9 energy or 6 energy with very high soul reaping. I supposed that energy cost is workable.
Draw Conditions recharges in only 2 seconds, so we can clean them all in about 9 seconds at a cost of 15 energy. It would take 5 pips of energy regen just to deal with the cost of this one skill, not really workable imo.
"It's Just A Flesh Wound" has no cast time but still has a 2 second recharge, so we can clean them all in 6 seconds at a cost of 15 energy. I foresee some energy problems with this as well, though it fixes the cast time issue nicely.

Of the mass removal options, I think Song of Purification is the most efficient, but it doesn't take effect instantly and if the user is already blinded it may be something of a problem to get the adrenaline to use it. If Song of Purification used energy instead of adrenaline this problem wouldn't exist... but that's not the way it is. Cautery Signet is good but it has a 15 second recharge. Martyr is only 10 seconds (and has faster cast time) so Martyr > Cautery in my book. Martyr does have the drawback of the user gaining all of those conditions but with Foul Feast or Plague Sending the conditions are not a problem, in fact they could be an advantage.

Having said all that, I don't really want to use the MM's elite slot for condition removal either, it seems like such as waste when we have things like Aura of the Lich, Jagged Bones and Discord to use in that slot. I'm thinking that Song of Purification on a paragon and Foul Feast on the MM and whatever condition removal the hench healers have should be plenty for almost any area. (again, making exceptions for places like Shards of Orr)

oh by the way, I updated the Kway page with all of the stuff we have been discussing here, I want to thank everyone for helping me with it.

http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/User:Khomet/Kway

MasterSasori · Feb 17, 2010, 05:44 PM // 17:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer

I don't understand what you are saying about the +1 energy from the shout, I was talking about running that on the minion bomber.

I'd rather run AotL instead of that then.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer

Foul Feast recharges in 5 seconds so we can clean all three paragons in 18s (with aftercast) at a cost of 9 energy or 6 energy with very high soul reaping. I supposed that energy cost is workable.
Draw Conditions recharges in only 2 seconds, so we can clean them all in about 9 seconds at a cost of 15 energy. It would take 5 pips of energy regen just to deal with the cost of this one skill, not really workable imo.
"It's Just A Flesh Wound" has no cast time but still has a 2 second recharge, so we can clean them all in 6 seconds at a cost of 15 energy. I foresee some energy problems with this as well, though it fixes the cast time issue nicely.

But IJaFW is an elite. Why worry about removal when you can just kill the mob faster? Doing math on this is impossible but the extra DPS output means less problems with conditions.

Heroes spam skills but not usually on recharge. If you're having huge problems with blind and there are no cover, then consider just using Extinguish.

Removal may be a pain, but it's not as if you're getting no DPS with one or two blind. Energy shouldn't be a problem if you are killing things fast enough. If it's such a problem, you can even consider blood ritual at low blood though it doesn't fit well on noncaster.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer

Of the mass removal options, I think Song of Purification is the most efficient, but it doesn't take effect instantly and if the user is already blinded it may be something of a problem to get the adrenaline to use it.

Exactly as you stated. If anything, SoP is one of the worse choice when dealing with blind because you cannot be assured of blind removal when you need it, leading to wipes. Your imbagon should have enough defense to keep the team alive for you to be using enough FF or Draw for DPS.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer

If Song of Purification used energy instead of adrenaline this problem wouldn't exist... but that's not the way it is. Cautery Signet is good but it has a 15 second recharge. Martyr is only 10 seconds (and has faster cast time) so Martyr > Cautery in my book. Martyr does have the drawback of the user gaining all of those conditions but with Foul Feast or Plague Sending the conditions are not a problem, in fact they could be an advantage.

Heroes can't use plague sending correctly to send over the conditions that matter. Instead all it does is just send conditions whenever it there is one on it. Martyr is generally better that Cautery but it still isn't a good option if FF/Draw should suffice.

BTW, where are you having this much problem with blind? Not even Shards is this much of a problem. Maybe you should try Recovery - even at low specs I find it very useful.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer

Having said all that, I don't really want to use the MM's elite slot for condition removal either, it seems like such as waste when we have things like Aura of the Lich, Jagged Bones and Discord to use in that slot. I'm thinking that Song of Purification on a paragon and Foul Feast on the MM and whatever condition removal the hench healers have should be plenty for almost any area. (again, making exceptions for places like Shards of Orr)

A condition removal on a paragon is more acceptable than on a MM but still, I'd much rather use something else.

A IJaFW and a FF is more than enough for most cases. I suggest you try out Extinguish. With FF or Draw, It's good if there isn't cover.

Whatever you do, try to make a MM elite remain a MM elite. So for recap

IJaFW
Draw Conditions
Foul Feast
Martyr
Cautery Signet
Song of Purification
Extinguish
Recovery
Signet of Removal
Empathic Removal
Dismiss/Mend ect

Anything else to add that's usable?

Khomet Si Netjer · Feb 17, 2010, 10:07 PM // 22:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by MasterSasori

Heroes spam skills but not usually on recharge. If you're having huge problems with blind and there are no cover, then consider just using Extinguish.

Removal may be a pain, but it's not as if you're getting no DPS with one or two blind. Energy shouldn't be a problem if you are killing things fast enough. If it's such a problem, you can even consider blood ritual at low blood though it doesn't fit well on noncaster.

...

Exactly as you stated. If anything, SoP is one of the worse choice when dealing with blind because you cannot be assured of blind removal when you need it, leading to wipes. Your imbagon should have enough defense to keep the team alive for you to be using enough FF or Draw for DPS.

BTW, where are you having this much problem with blind? Not even Shards is this much of a problem. Maybe you should try Recovery - even at low specs I find it very useful.

Well the problem is that some of the most common blind skills are area-of-effect... i'm talking about Blinding Surge and Throw dirt mostly. Mandragors are a good example of total condition overload with mass blinding thrown in. Shards of Orr has mass blinding as well. One hit from Blinding Surge or Throw Dirt will usually get your whole group because the heroes all stand close to you. Blinding Surge recharges in 4 seconds (2.66 in hardmode) so it's easy to see why this becomes a major problem. No build can do mass condition removal every 3 seconds except maybe SoP, and you can't build the adrenaline to use SoP while blind. Catch-22.

The energy cost of extinguish is too high for my liking, and the recharge too long to fix this problem. It can lift all blind every 12s, but they can reapply it every 3s or faster, and even then it would only lift the blind if there is no cover condition. :-\

Recovery is a great idea, possibly the SoS/Splinter/Orders rit can be modified to run that in areas with blind spam. We can probably just lose Orders completely in such areas and spec 10 Restoration instead of 10 blood.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MasterSasori

A condition removal on a paragon is more acceptable than on a MM but still, I'd much rather use something else.

A IJaFW and a FF is more than enough for most cases. I suggest you try out Extinguish. With FF or Draw, It's good if there isn't cover.

Whatever you do, try to make a MM elite remain a MM elite. So for recap

IJaFW
Draw Conditions
Foul Feast
Martyr
Cautery Signet
Song of Purification
Extinguish
Recovery
Signet of Removal
Empathic Removal
Dismiss/Mend ect

Anything else to add that's usable?

Finale of Purification is one of my favorites, it doesn't take effect instantly though. Here's a thought, the P/R could lose an attack skill or rez and bring Antidote Signet, that way he could cure his own blindness and then activate Song of Purification to help the rest of the party. Racthoh had his motivation paragon carrying Spear of Redemption for this purpose but I found it pretty ineffective because like SoP it is an adrenaline skill, so if you are blind you can't gain the adrenaline to use it, and even then it only removes a condition if you miss. It should always remove a condition IMO. Antidote Signet has the advantage of removing up to 4 conditions at once and Blind will always be removed no matter what.

So why all this concern about blindness? It's a physical heavy team that is largely neutralized by blindness so we have to have good ways of dealing with it. I think the Kway team build is pretty strong already but it never hurts to prepare for the somewhat ridiculous corner cases because we know that they do exist in some areas. Heroes are not smart enough to know that they should always clean the Imbagon first so we have to work around that.

MasterSasori · Feb 18, 2010, 04:11 PM // 16:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer

Well the problem is that some of the most common blind skills are area-of-effect... i'm talking about Blinding Surge and Throw dirt mostly. Mandragors are a good example of total condition overload with mass blinding thrown in. Shards of Orr has mass blinding as well. One hit from Blinding Surge or Throw Dirt will usually get your whole group because the heroes all stand close to you. Blinding Surge recharges in 4 seconds (2.66 in hardmode) so it's easy to see why this becomes a major problem. No build can do mass condition removal every 3 seconds except maybe SoP, and you can't build the adrenaline to use SoP while blind. Catch-22.

Despite the mass overload of conditions, Mandragors are pretty harmless. Shards is a different story. The best way to deal with this is still 2 MBAs + Recovery. MBAS will function as a heal and removal, fast recharge to keep up with B Surge and Recovery will significantly help. There aren't a million of Wizards in a group. Just take them out first and you should cruise through them. You should probably consider using Smite/Derv or some holy damage. BTW smite monks are incredible when removing conditions.

Smite Condition, Draw Condition, Zeal for energy, Smiter's Boon for heals, holy damage. Theoretically this will function very well in Shards.

There is Aggression signet to build up adren. It is a possibility but I haven't tested it out. It will get SoP to where you want.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer

Here's a thought, the P/R could lose an attack skill or rez and bring Antidote Signet, that way he could cure his own blindness and then activate Song of Purification to help the rest of the party. Racthoh had his motivation paragon carrying Spear of Redemption for this purpose but I found it pretty ineffective because like SoP it is an adrenaline skill, so if you are blind you can't gain the adrenaline to use it, and even then it only removes a condition if you miss. It should always remove a condition IMO. Antidote Signet has the advantage of removing up to 4 conditions at once and Blind will always be removed no matter what.

The problem with antidote signet is that heroes tend to use it whenever they have a condition on them. Paragons in particular, have a huge problem with this due to AR. Spear of Redemption is crap. Maybe try Holy Spear for holy damage and do more to Undead in Shards of Orr? Just a thought.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer

So why all this concern about blindness? It's a physical heavy team that is largely neutralized by blindness so we have to have good ways of dealing with it. I think the Kway team build is pretty strong already but it never hurts to prepare for the somewhat ridiculous corner cases because we know that they do exist in some areas. Heroes are not smart enough to know that they should always clean the Imbagon first so we have to work around that.

So you're going to have to micro draw conditions on your paragon. Not really much of an exception there.

Despite all counters possible, there isn't really a satisfactory response for a team of physicals to deal with blind enough so that you would want to take this team into Shards of Orr rather than another.

I know this isn't what you want to hear, but people will be reluctant, despite how good the hero build is if it has a glaring weakness to creatures in that area. There are some places that paragons aren't meant to be good in and it is a fact that you will have to accept. If you do successfully cure yourself of all blind, I do not believe you can do so without taking a significant toll on the potential of the build (look at how ridiculous Racway became to counter hexes in desolation). I would H&H with this but I wouldn't bring a friend using this build into shards.

No offense but food for thought.

HigherMinion · Feb 18, 2010, 04:26 PM // 16:26

The Signet of Removal build, which I believe I've posted already somewhere here; on a Me/Mo if under Essence of Celerity, is capable of spamming Signet of Removal once per second, and spam Draw Conditions additionally. If you go into heavy condition areas with a physway team, this hero is your saviour.

MasterSasori · Feb 18, 2010, 04:27 PM // 16:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

The Signet of Removal build, which I believe I've posted already somewhere here; on a Me/Mo if under Essence of Celerity, is capable of spamming Signet of Removal once per second, and spam Draw Conditions additionally. If you go into heavy condition areas with a physway team, this hero is your saviour.

How well does it work on a hero? I know its ridiculously powerful on a human.

HigherMinion · Feb 18, 2010, 05:10 PM // 17:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by MasterSasori

How well does it work on a hero? I know its ridiculously powerful on a human.

Sometimes better; you can put interrupts on the hero variant, and this means less hexes to clean anyway. Disabling BS would be a nice way to go about removing it.

MasterSasori · Feb 18, 2010, 06:32 PM // 18:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

Sometimes better; you can put interrupts on the hero variant, and this means less hexes to clean anyway. Disabling BS would be a nice way to go about removing it.

Well there we go - problem with blind solved.

Khomet Si Netjer · Feb 18, 2010, 10:15 PM // 22:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by MasterSasori

Smite Condition, Draw Condition, Zeal for energy, Smiter's Boon for heals, holy damage. Theoretically this will function very well in Shards.

Heh I love smite monks. :-D
With this team I'd definitely take a smiter with Judge's Insight and RoJ and Smite Hex and Smite Condition, if the smiter could keep Judge's Insight on two barrage/volley characters and keep them clean you can imagine the damage. O_o I've been through SoO hardmode five or six times already, holy damage is definitely the way to go.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MasterSasori

There is Aggression signet to build up adren. It is a possibility but I haven't tested it out. It will get SoP to where you want.

Excellent idea, I had forgotten about that!

Quote:

Originally Posted by MasterSasori

The problem with antidote signet is that heroes tend to use it whenever they have a condition on them. Paragons in particular, have a huge problem with this due to AR. Spear of Redemption is crap. Maybe try Holy Spear for holy damage and do more to Undead in Shards of Orr? Just a thought.

agreed 100%... strangely though, Holy Spear does not actually do holy damage, it just explodes with holy damage and burning if it hits a minion or spirit. It won't do any extra damage to the undead in SoO since they are not minions. It works great against the minion masters in Vloxen and Slavers though.
IMO Anet really needs to change the cracked armor mechanic of Aggressive Refrain and now Soldier's Fury, these skills definitely did not need a nerf in PvE and it is quite irritating to deal with the repercussions of constant cracked armor. Heroes drain their energy in a futile attempt to remove a condition that will never end. /sigh

Quote:

Originally Posted by MasterSasori

So you're going to have to micro draw conditions on your paragon. Not really much of an exception there.

Yeah this is a good point too, Draw Conditions removes them all and recharges very quickly, I suppose I should start carrying that on my monk builds in situations where it matters. They are usually carrying something with more side effects like Smite Condition or Dismiss Condition or Mend Ailment.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MasterSasori

Despite all counters possible, there isn't really a satisfactory response for a team of physicals to deal with blind enough so that you would want to take this team into Shards of Orr rather than another.

I know this isn't what you want to hear, but people will be reluctant, despite how good the hero build is if it has a glaring weakness to creatures in that area. There are some places that paragons aren't meant to be good in and it is a fact that you will have to accept. If you do successfully cure yourself of all blind, I do not believe you can do so without taking a significant toll on the potential of the build (look at how ridiculous Racway became to counter hexes in desolation). I would H&H with this but I wouldn't bring a friend using this build into shards.

No offense but food for thought.

Oh, no offense taken... some people will say OMG why are you taking physicals into a place like Shards of Orr, my team of permas can clear the whole place in 20 minutes. These guys are completely missing the point.
The question is not "why should you take paragons into Shards of Orr", rather, the question is "how can I make my paragon team successful everywhere". The assumption is that you have already decided to use a paragon or physical team instead of sabway, discord, etc.

I set out make some improvements to racway, not to make the most efficient speedclear team. Kway is intended for paragons though you could modify it for other professions; it is intended to be a useful player+heroes team for paragons or other physical damage dealers in the way that sabway and discordway are generally useful. Sure there are some places where these teams have problems but generally they can be modified to deal with just about anything. That is my goal with Kway. I've already done everything in hardmode with my paragon, vanquishing and missions and dungeons, so I am very familiar with the strengths and weaknesses of the commonly used paragon teams, e.g. racway. Lack of AoE is the biggest weakness IMO and that is why the paragon teams have (until now?) lacked the damage potential that you can get with other professions.

Other commonly used teams (e.g. sabway) can have big problems in certain areas too, it's not just a paragon problem. What is sabway going to do in places like SoO where the enemies don't leave corpses? Without minions they have no meatshields and no energy and the whole build falls apart. With paragons you can pretty much operate anywhere as long as the blind and hex spam is dealt with so I would view it as more versatile.